Stephen Ohl, Director of Sales Are Dope
I learned a lot about what [salespeople] actually do and why people that work in sales, are very proud of what they do. They're proud of the tough job that they have. And they're proud of when they make a sale. And for good reason, because it's like anything else that we do that's just endless learning by doing lots of practice and repetition, until you get so good that you could sell anyone anything.
Pouyan Salehi, CEO & Co-Founder at Scratchpad
So you're ready to go into sales?
Stephen
Yeah I thought that that was the job opportunity to begin with man. I mean, I was desperate so
Beyond Quota Intro
Ross Pomerantz a.k.a. Corporate Bro
We are joined by Stephen Ohl aka Steve. The director of the soon to be critically acclaimed S.A.D. Sales Are Dope. And of course, we've got Talon Gonzalez as well. Our second AD and Producer. Am I forgetting someone? No, first AD? Third AD? Ninth AD? Eleventh AD Which AD are you? Which number?
Talon Gonzalez, Producer of Sales Are Dope & Creative Director at Bravado
First of Additional Photography.
Stephen
He's the second, first AD. Let's put it that way.
Ross
And honestly, Creative Director and was part of this project before anyone else besides Ben. Talon even suffered through the Unsubscribe Show. He suffered through many Cold Call Reenactments, which Steven has as well and of course we've got Pouyan. Grand... can we say Grandmaster?
Pouyan
I've been called many other things that are worse than that. But hey, Grandmaster I will take. Yes, sir. I will take
Ross
Grandmaster Pouyan.
Pouyan
I'm excited for this show. And Steve, Talon, thanks so much for joining. I'm just impressed you all signed up to work with Ross again, after Unsubscribe. Let's jump right in. And I've got a bunch of questions for you all. But I'm curious. How does it feel right now?
Stephen
Talon, you go first. Because you brought me on to the project as well. That's another masterful use of his talents that he brought was he brought me so Talon's been on a long time. So Talon how does it feel for you?
Talon
Yeah, I mean it feels, in a way it's a big sense of relief. This has been top of mind for, I mean, over, I don't know, I could even say three years. That's how long I've known Ross. And he's been talking about it since then. It wasn't a fully fleshed out, but it started really ramping up maybe like a little over a year ago. So since then, until now, it's just been kind of like pushing a rock up a hill. And finally, we're just about to get it up there. So yeah, it feels great. Big accomplishment. I'm super happy with our final product. Very excited to have people see it finally.
Pouyan
Talon why don't we have you share the story of, from your perspective how this came to be?
Talon
It was around the time when Ross and Ben had been working on a script, they obviously had the pilot from before, I think it was like the 2020 pilot. And they were reworking a lot of the script to kind of go from I don't know, if you guys had like a couple episodes done. And you got into, like, turn that into a full season. But you know, that was around the time that I knew they needed a little help with like some structure and a little bit more of like a fine tuned eye as to like converting it from the ideas they had in their head to what would be successful on a show, like multi-episodic show. And that's when I thought of Steven, who I'd worked with quite a few times before. He's a graduate from American Film Institute. I worked on a lot of projects with him, I worked on a feature film that he did a couple years ago. I think it was like 2019. So I knew he kind of had the the writing chops and the experience from taking a project from the page to the screen. And I thought that would be just a great asset to Ross and Ben's already great talent of like understanding sales and great joke writing. I wanted to have somebody that had that experience and kind of could pull it all together. So that's when you know, I think I was at a bar with Stephen. And I was like, Hey, I'm working with these guys. You should check out this script draft they had. And then I came over to Ross and Ben was like, Hey, I think this guy could have a great eye, check him out. And I think it went from sharing the script to then having him kind of join on as like an additional writer. And that kept going and it kind of fleshed out into the full season. And then yeah, I think you can take it from there Ross.
Ross
Yeah, I mean, Ben and I were trying to write 22-minute network television like level episodes, which like, it's one thing to just put enough words on a piece of paper for that to be 22 minutes. And it's another to make it like, actually, the formula needed to be a compelling piece of television. And we just weren't like good enough. And also, I think part of it was, we knew that even if we were to write eight episodes, there's no way we'd get to make eight episodes, 22 minutes long. The budget it would take, the time it would take. So we basically decided, okay, let's take three episodes, break them up, either do somewhere between six to 10 episodes, you know what, we'll chunk them into thirds, and then fill in some blanks add some meat to it, just so they feel a little bit more like full stories versus just like chopping at random points. And so having Stephen come on, and we had a few other writers kind of pass through the writer's room for periods of time. Folks like Alexis Gay was on it, was working on it with us for a couple months, then she moved to New York. And so kind of she was overloaded, kind of to bow out we had another guy named Will Ewing, who, is a writer on Riverdale and he had AMC pickup one of his pilots. And so he was busy and kind of had to move on there. But like, then Stephen was the last nail that we kind of needed to bring in someone who A) kind of shared our humor and B) could watch this and read the show with someone who had no experience with it. Like Ben and I were so deep and so caught up in the details that this guy could read it for the first time and give us a genuine first opinion. And be like, do you understand this as a guy who had no sales or tech experience. Like he's been a Hollywood guy through and through and a director through and through. So it was just like, that's what we needed to kind of get it to a point where the story made sense for people that weren't just people sitting on the sales floor.
Pouyan
I'm so curious Talon, what was your experience with sales before? What was your perception of sales before? And what is it now?
Talon
Yeah, I mean, I guess it really would be before and after I joined Bravado. So I'm the Creative Director at Bravado and I've been there just about five and a half years. So before that, I didn't know much about tech sales and my only experience with sales was working at a Startup that I went door-to-door to different businesses trying to have them create a student discount. So I kind of had that, like, very minimal canvassing experience, I guess you'd say. But then taking it to the next level of tech sales, where you have six figure deals and huge things at stake, and a definitely a different lifestyle as far as like it with all the tech components involved. So my impression before was, I don't know what tech sales people did. I you know, hearing about Bravado and what they did, I was like, Alright, there's gotta be something important if we're creating a company around these folks. So yeah, I guess I just it was kind of just ignorance. Didn't know how they would be different than other tech people that I encountered. But quickly found out that it is kind of its own subculture that's very different. I'd say the thing I learned the most from working at Bravado is you absolutely cannot bullshit salespeople, they will just see right through that. They'll sniff it out immediately. I mean, not that I was trying to bullshit anybody but you know, I think it's just clear they'll see it coming from a mile away, if you try to smooth something over with some fancy language like no they're right to the point, they know what you're trying to do. And I think that then comes through with content. You don't pull any punches, you gotta just be real. The more you can level with them in the reality of what tech sales is, the more it's going to resonate. So I think that lesson has carried through, especially to the show where, you know, we're depicting a early stage, startup tech sales team, and all of the things that go along with that. And, yeah, I want to just do justice to what is, you know, fairly different than what the other experiences in tech can be.
Pouyan
Steve, I asked Talon what his perception of sales was before doing the show and what it is now. Your turn.
Stephen
Yeah, absolutely. Can you guys hear me now? Yeah, sorry about the internet. I moved to a ranch in Texas. And Elon Musk hasn't gotten his gear here yet. So waiting for it. But yeah, salespeople before. I mean, damn, I thought they were like, you know, coffee, chugging Adderall, snorting savages, beforehand. And now I think exactly the same thing. No, I mean, no, I really didn't know much about the sales world. You know, I just thought that there were these people that So, you know, made calls all day long, but I didn't know how much they were cold calling, I didn't know how many calls they were making a day. You know, I didn't know how kind of intense, difficult and downright traumatic, the work was to them at times, but it makes sense, you know. And so I learned a lot about, you know, what they actually do, and why people that work in sales, you know, they kind of, they're very proud of it, too, you know, they're like, they're proud of the tough job that they have, and they're proud when they make a sale. And for good reason, because it's like anything else that we do. Endless learning by doing lots of practice, repetition, until you get so good that you could sell anyone anything.
Pouyan
So you're ready to go into sales?
Stephen
Yeah I thought that that was the job opportunity to begin with man. I mean, I was desperate. So
Pouyan
I wasn't gonna say anything.
Ross
Obviously he's desperate if he's working with me.
Pouyan
But seriously, how was it working with Ross, what was the worst part?
Stephen
Working with him was awesome, you know, got a great sense of humor. And I could always rely on him to bring the funnies, which allowed me to, you know, focus on story, character, visuals. And we actually ended up making a good team, I think we did a little butt-sniffing at first. Kind of a, you know, toxic masculine dance to see who was gonna trust who first and then do we really have what it takes to work with each other. And I think like throughout the process, it became very smooth. It was always difficult to wake up in the morning and find everything rewritten. You know, but I adapted to that. And usually the rewriting was for improvements. And, you know, the guy can be a little bit neurotic sometimes, but what great artists can't? Overall it was a good time Yeah.
Pouyan
That was a lot more tame. And nice than I was expected to share, but
Ross
We had our moments.
Stephen
Yeah, we'll do the shit talking after the show.
Ross
You hear these stories of film sets, and how ridiculous they can be. And like, if anybody's listening has ever watched like The Bear on Hulu and how everybody in the kitchen is just screaming at each other, just saying so many ruthless, mean things. And then the next day, everyone shows up for work, like, everything's fine. And like, that's just like the nature of it. I kind of had that impression of film sets where everyone's just like, Fuck this, and fuck that and people were yelling at each other - I felt like, we had a pretty damn cordial set of people who seem to all be bought in and like having a really fun time. And, you know, we had our moments of frustration, and we had our like, like, anything, some things take longer than others, and you want to get things right, and you're, you know, you've only got that day to kill that, kill that scene. And you don't get to go back, you know, we didn't have the money and the time and the, you know, ability to fall back. So you're stressing a little bit at times to make sure you get everything you need, so that it can be as good as it can. So Stephen and I had many, many small disagreements and our discussions, but like, at the end of the day, like we brought Stephen here because he's good at what he does, and knows it a lot better than certainly me or Ben. You know, like, we couldn't do it unless Stephen was there. We had no idea what the hell we were doing. So Stephen had to drive.
Stephen
And that's what made it a great collaboration. You know, it was like, they're the experts, on the show and the writing and the world and I could bring my expertise into filmmaking. Trying to make this this high quality show, but I really like I can't do like, what you're talking about the shouting matches. I can't do conflict. Like, I don't know how some people on set can live in that environment and some directors even relish that, but I am like the path of least resistance, right? Like, it's like, if there is a conflict, I have to figure out a way to work it out as smooth and quickly as possible. Because I can't operate if there's like, bad energy at all, and then my energy trickles down to everybody else. And so if there is any negative energy, the whole set will be corrupted in like seconds.
Ross
Yeah, if he's like and action. Yeah, you know, we need ANNND ACTION. We need that.
Pouyan
Ross, let's flip that. How was this experience relative to sales? Like being on set, making a film, making multiple episodes?
Ross
I think in terms of sales, most of the selling came upfront on getting people bought into the project. would actually liken it a lot more to probably what you do on a day to day with Scratchpad of managing the project across all departments and like needing to just make sure that nothing gets forgotten or like, you're in one of those modes where it's like, okay, like I said earlier, like, we got one shot at this. If I'm curious or worried or like thinking, maybe we missed something, I have to say it. We don't get to go back and fix it, if not, so like, you're kind of just trying to stay on top of all the things that need to happen. And like, you know, it's not a lack of trust of anyone else. It's just like, I would regret if we missed something, because I didn't say something. And so I would say things that people would be like, Yeah, of course, we got that duh. Like we're done. I'm like, okay, cool, I just want to make sure like, we're there and we got that. It's much more of like... it's just a longer day than what a typical sales day is. You're just managing and thinking about so many different pieces, you know, and then the writing at night. Like that, that was... so much of this when you're a first timer, you can't see the sets. You don't know what the set's actually going to look like, you don't know who the actors are going to be when you're writing. And that's why like so many comedy shows are better in the second, third, fourth seasons because you know what you're working with. And so we'd have inside jokes, we'd have improv moments, we'd have these periods where it's like, oh, now this line no longer makes sense. Or let's make a reference to this previous joke, because it's already happened and like, make it feel, it was really about kind of bringing out some of the chemistry that you started to see on the set. And so like, to me, it was just project management at like, an extreme level,
Pouyan
What was the most difficult part of making this? I mean, you kind of alluded to how there's lots of changes. You wake up in the morning and you're like, Okay, this thing has been rewritten. You got to adjust quickly. But what was hard about it? Who was hard to work with? On it? You don't have to go into names if you don't want. Are there certain roles?
Talon
Something difficult with any big project is just scheduling things out and making sure you're good to start. I think that is always difficult, you know, you got to make sure you have the right cast in place. And then everything fits in together on a schedule. And then you can finally say, Alright, these are the days we're shooting. You know, this is the order we're shooting in. This is how the scenes will play out. That's, I think, typical for any shoot. I'd say for me right now, a difficult thing is getting everything wrapped up, like right now, for the premiere, for the project, because there's so many people working on a project. And you have to check out every small little detail before you can finally say it's done. I think that is something that's so easy to mess up. And we're constantly finding things wrong and having to go back. That's difficult, because you always fear that something is missed, or you know, you only have one shot to have the final product and you're gonna miss something. So yeah, you got to kind of be a little bit of a perfectionist and go back and fix whatever has to be done.
Stephen
Yeah, I'll start with the writing process. I think the difficult thing for me or when I came on was to make it accessible to a general audience. And that was like bringing the voiceover in more anytime I didn't understand something that was a great tool to bring me up to speed and the audience and really leaning into that. Making sure that there was a human story to it as well. And like something to connect with, because it's always been really funny. But I think when we did the rewrite together, me Ross and Ben, we really amped up the characters' development, and we really made it a story arc, but that was difficult. And then pre-production, finding the right office location was really challenging and then casting. And then the casting went into the production. The production itself was really hard, but it went really smooth. We had a great crew. And we ended up having a great cast. But I think the difficult part for me was, Ross has this thing in his head. And he was trusting me to direct it with my vision. But it was like, the things that were difficult for me were like this character has to be this way has to look this way because of these reasons. And me making sure that Ross and Ben were very happy every step of the way with the characters. And getting those performances right was the most challenging for me. And then in the post production, just having so many executives and so many producers to make sure that they're seeing everything and we're all on the same page and making sure that everyone's happy.
Ben Gould
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Pouyan
Folks that I've talked to that have seen the trailer are like, why why did this not happen sooner? Like this needed to exist. So fired up for it. What are you all hoping happens with this?
Ross
I tell everyone I have extremely high hopes and extremely low expectations. In a worst case scenario, this goes on YouTube, and a lot of people really enjoy it. And it's a project that I'm just so proud to have gotten done and out in the world. My like, I'll say, threshold for success is all I want to do is figure out how to do it again. We have a mapped out Second Season, I would love to figure out how we can triple the budget. So we can go outside, how we can do more things, like we've got, there's so many funny things like I've written a scene about Corp and Travis getting absolutely dominated by a Girl Scout. I've got Corp and Raj trying to make a sale at a at a funeral. Like to be able to do those things, you need budget, right? And so all I want to do is prove that if we had more resources, we could do this again. And even better. Like that's, that's what I want to do. I mean, would it be great to get 10 million views and then Netflix is like, hey, we want to buy this and bring it out like immediately? Of course. But I'm a little more realistic than that. We're watching television as we know, media changed. Right now work has never been slower, shows have never been picked up at a slower pace, you know. And that's the cool part is like we went out and did this on our own and obviously with the help of Scratchpad and Bravado, but like we didn't need traditional Hollywood. We didn't have to go through the streamers, like we got it done. And so I don't care how we get it done again, I would like to do it again, though. That's like what I would say.
Stephen
Yeah, I'm super pumped. I'm very excited about it. I can't wait for it to just be out there. I'm gonna read people's comments and watch the ticker go up and then hopefully, you know, I really I want to take the time to pitch this around. I wanted to try to get it on Netflix or Hulu. But I agree with you know, the final conclusion to just get it out there into the world. I mean, that's the best thing right is to complete something and actually have an audience to watch it which is what Corporate Bro and Corporate Natalie being on board have really provided us so I'm pumped. I hope we get to Season Two. And I hope it happens soon. Like I'm ready to go.
Pouyan
Ross, what are you thinking for the world of sales or for salespeople watching this? What do you want that impact to be?
Ross
Some of the best compliments I can get are when people are just like, Yo, you're making us, making me, feel seen. For once my profession is seen and normalized and understood. I think that's the biggest thing. And you know, salespeople are just the absolute worst, most of the time, they've all going to be like, where's the Channel Sales, bro? Like, where's the On-site? They're gonna nitpick all the things that they didn't see. And it's like, Dude, I would have done all those things. If we had budget and time and all these things. I just hope it's at least the most accurate portrayal of what tech sales is today. And I think it will be that, you know, I even think Silicon Valley missed it in a huge way. They'd spent like three episodes max on it and they basically had the sales team in a room kind of being there. It's the side of Silicon Valley, the story that nobody told. And it's the oldest, largest profession on Earth. It's like far bigger than any amount of developers or VCs or founders. It's the real engine that kind of has made Silicon Valley go round for so many years. And so I'm just, you know, stoked to be able to tell that story as best as we can with the resources and constraints that we had.
Pouyan
It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be really fun. I'm beyond excited for it. I'm glad this exists in the world. I was telling Ross when he shared the idea with me the first time I was like, 100% yes. Like not even a second of hesitation because I think Ross what you said is what really got me excited about it as well, having built technology for salespeople now for gosh, 7, 8, 9 years or so - it's such an important part of the ecosystem. And there's probably millions, if not tens of millions of people around the world that are doing this job, yet their story was not told. And so I think I'm again, fingers crossed. I'm really hoping this thing takes off because I think there are still many more stories to tell around it. And let's see where it goes.
Ross
We didn't even touch the marketing team. We didn't even get marketing in this. Couldn't afford em.
Talon
How bout a sales conference?
Ross
Yeah, exactly the sales conferences, sales trainers like God, there's so many things and ideas that we have, but we just, you know, next season. That's what we always say we're always like 'push it to Season 2. That was always the joke, we'll do it in Season 2.
Pouyan
Let me ask I guess we'll end with two questions here. How did you decide what to actually put in and what not to? And the reason I asked that is because the concept of focus is so important when you're building anything, you know, I come at it from the perspective of building products and like, what feature do you put in? What do you not? What do you release? How do you do that in this? In developing a series?
Stephen
For me, it's always story. When I'm going through, and when we're working it out and reading the script, and anything that's getting cut, it's just like, does this contribute to the story? Is this information we need to know to move forward? Or is it just a really funny joke? And then as far as sales stuff, it's like, there may be some things that were like too specific, or we don't need to know this bit of information. Still keeping my general audience hat on. What information do they need to know? What's funny? I mean, I will say like, the sales world is incredibly rich with a lot of humorous material. So there's a lot of stuff that we wanted to include, but couldn't. And we will in the next, you know, season, but yeah for me is always just keeping it tight. Keeping it funny, keeping it focused.
Pouyan
So let's end on one last question here for each of you if you have one. But what's your favorite part or what's your favorite scene in the show?
Talon
My favorite scene has to do with Mickey who's a new SDR that's just joined. We kind of join the company as viewers, as she joins the company. And we have a flashback to her sales training. And, you know, I've never gone through sales training, but I've heard about it and it's supposed to be very constructive. But this was with the manager Pfister giving a very blunt and realistic training exercise, where instead of having a nice prospect who's going along with everything you're saying, immediately blows up and is frustrated and starts cussing you out, and telling you that calling them is illegal and they're going to prosecute you and all these things. As a standalone scene even as just a flashback, I think it's great. That was one of the first things I read, I think it's in maybe the second or third episode that I was like, Wow, this is gonna be great on screen. And then Steven came along and made it even better.
Stephen
I love this other scene that has dialogue about a popsicle stand that if you watch the show, you will appreciate that later on. But yeah, I'm really proud of the opening of the show and the opening shot, as well as the following scene, which is like mainly all the characters' intros. Because that was like the second day of shooting, and like, I really just wanted it to be energetic, and really introduce all these characters in a fun, fresh way. And I think we really nailed it. And for our day 2 first thing we're shooting I could watch that in the first episode and just be really proud of the work we did throughout, but I think it really grabs you and pulls you in and makes you want to invest time with these with these people.
Ross
I think those are both great scenes, and I probably would have picked them before this. But I'm gonna pick a third one. And that is inside of Casa Jeff's. We talked about like the diversity of shots. And it's basically a monologue, I give this monologue on why I got let go of my previous company. And I explain what President's Club is and we kind of see what happened and why I got fired, which is absolutely outrageous. But we use this like green screen technique, which looks really good. And it just moves really well and kind of like superimposes different locations where I'm describing this President's Club that can be in Fiji and Vegas. And it's intentionally cheesy, but it works really well. So I'm walking in place, wearing a Hawaiian shirt and the background just changes from like, Fiji to Vegas to Cincinnati. And I'm just like, still wearing the same shit. But it works well as like telling the story. And I just like that scene, not just because of like what I'm saying in it or even that I'm in it, but just that it's like a testament to what we were able to achieve where like the limited resources and do it in a funny way that feels on brand and feels right. It didn't feel like we were cheaping out. It felt like a choice.
Pouyan
Yeah, I can't wait man, this needed to exist. It exists. And let's hope we can we keep it going. Because it's like you said, there's a lot of rich content that comes out the sales.
Stephen
That was the thing that struck me the most just reading it, you know, it was just like, this was such a rich world. It was so funny. It just felt like the world needs this show. And I think it totally does. And so it's been born so let's keep going another season
Ben Gould
Ad Break - Are you looking for ways to execute, manage and measure your entire sales process? Scratchpad is your answer. The world's largest sales teams including Autodesk, Algolia, Cisco, GoTo, Lattice, Segment are already seeing better results. Learn more at Scratchpad.com
