Corporate Bro:
All right. That's some royalty-free shit, people. That's what we do.
Pouyan:
And we're back. So I'm Pouyan from Scratchpad. We've got with us Ross, otherwise known as-
Corporate Bro:
The Corp Bro.
Pouyan:
Yes.
Corporate Bro:
Plus, we've got another Ross on here, but are you sure you don't want to go by Rich because you do have two first names. That is the first thing I noticed.
Ross Rich:
Yes I do have, I actually have three first and last names. Ross Cooper Rich gets very confusing, but-
Corporate Bro:
Oh God.
Ross Rich:
... we can go with Rich for now.
Pouyan:
What I'd love to do is you've got such an interesting background from what I've seen, and I'd love to hear more of your story, but going from working with artists to Ross's favorite subject, which is marketing, and then to sales, and then now to just starting your own company, why did you get out of sales and to start your own company?
Ross Rich:
Yeah, great question. I don't feel like I have left sales. I feel like every single day I'm doing sales, whether it's hiring, selling people on the vision, the investor stuff, sales calls all day, I feel like that's kind of the future moving forward too, a CEO's job. I think there's some crazy percentage of Fortune 500 companies that come from a sales background. And a lot of people are focused on themselves. It's like, here's our customers, here are our features and functionality. And you're not really talking about solving the other person's problem.
Ross Rich:
And those are the top five, 10% of reps that hit 250% of quota every quarter. That's why we started Accord, basically. How do you help create a repeatable sales process and how do you help up-level the conversation that reps are having with buyers to, hey, what business problem are you solving?
Pouyan:
So it sounds like your experience in sales, like you started Accord because, if I'm hearing you correctly, it was an experience or a challenge that you faced while actually doing sales.
Ross Rich:
Exactly. Yeah. We were hacking together, basically Accord, this collaboration platform via Google Docs and Sheets and shared Slack channels and texts with the customer. It's like, we want a way to align on everything with you and be super transparent and collaborative, and talking over Zoom like this you're going to forget three quarters of it because you're probably Slacking your colleagues about your actual day job instead of buying this thing. The big "aha" moment was you think your job is hard selling? Try being a buyer.
Pouyan:
In my experience, too, it's how the sales skills are so important in starting something because it sounds like what you were doing is trying to sell, or at least qualify and learn before you even had a product.
Ross Rich:
That was the blessing of it is what could we build? We were literally two ex-sales reps trying to start a company.
Pouyan:
Yeah. So how did those going through that process actually help you figure out what to build and like where to start from there?
Ross Rich:
Yeah. I think, again, kind of talking to other reps and office people and enablement and leaders, I would say it was more validation and learning because we had lived it. It was like, yeah, that's what the best people do. You help the buyer buy, you do all this stuff. It was kind of like, no shit. I drew out the app as a demo first. And I would literally draw out what I was hearing. It was like, okay, so it sounds like this. And I'd like, because we couldn't build the thing, we were just go through this and we did this kind of part time for like six months before we left our jobs.
Pouyan:
Do you mean like-
Ross Rich:
We basically built-
Pouyan:
... paper and pencil draw or like you were holding up like a whiteboard-
Ross Rich:
Yeah.
Pouyan:
... like-
Ross Rich:
No, no, no, no. Literally like an app, but I'd be like, hey, pretend you clicked this button and then I'd be like, next page. And that's how we decided the first market for.
Pouyan:
That's just old school, man. That's like the old storyboards, the flip books.
Ross Rich:
Yeah. That is what mostly what looks like Accord today and what we designed. And yeah, it was just based on just talking to people, being like, how would you go about this better than what you're doing today?
Corporate Bro:
I know a lot of sales people kind of like, this might be a jump, but where does Y Combinator fit in all of this? Because a lot of people put Y Combinator up on a pedestal. It's like this cool, exclusive thing. If you came through it, it's like clout, but nobody really knows what it is or how you get in-
Ross Rich:
Like Stanford?
Corporate Bro:
... at least on the sales side. Yeah. Like Stanford, which, yeah. No, my MBA is on the wall over there. Just, it's the first thing you see when you walk in, just so you know that I'm better than you. What is that process like? What do you even experience in there? Because sales people will see it here, they're, "Oh, Y Combinator backed, like I'm going to hit that company up. They seem like a good prospect."
Ross Rich:
My perspective on that. I mean, it was interesting because I think a lot of the value from doing something like Y Combinator with most of the people that go through that are like super talented, young engineers or product people or people that are more building the thing. And they're like, how do you add structure to it, how do you think about building initial product? How do you think about having conversations with potential customers, like what we were doing before? So I think they add a lot of that on.
Ross Rich:
We kind of saw it conversely. It was like, how can we learn all the things that those people know that we haven't been exposed to? And just the number of companies and top companies they see, it was like, they're probably doing something right. And also John and Patrick from, the founders of Stripe, would always talk about their experience of Y Combinator and Y Combinator companies as like, yeah, kind of put them on a pedestal. So it was like, that seems like a thing to do if we could get in. And I think despite not having like a technology building background, they really loved how passionate we were about sales and the domain we were building. And the understanding, I think they see a lot of companies that have great ideas or build great tech, but they, it doesn't translate to the market because they don't really understand what they're building for and why.
Corporate Bro:
Can you talk about that process? The like, what does the application look like? You guys just had an idea, you were talking about the flip book, but you guys got in somehow, like kind of in a more, even more granular level.
Ross Rich:
Yeah. So they have a super formal application that everyone goes through, regardless of your connections, all that kind of stuff. Super basic questions about your business that are very hard to answer early on. So like, can you describe your company in like 10 words? Can you describe exactly who your early market is going to be? All of that kind of stuff. Honestly, it helped us, I think, define the company and the product much earlier, just going through that application process.
Pouyan:
Right.
Ross Rich:
And I would say we were probably much further behind in terms of building the product but I think much further ahead in terms of thinking about what's the early market look like, what are your customers saying, understand that kind of stuff. And then the interviews was super intense. They basically fire the same set of like 50 questions at you.
Ross Rich:
So it's like you and your founders sitting there across the table from three other people. One person is just looking at physical dynamics, literally like looking at you and your founders-
Pouyan:
Interesting.
Ross Rich:
... and like how you guys work together. Because the number one reason why most early startups fail is like founder dynamics. So they're literally looking at you, like, you know, who's the snake in there. And like ask you super basic questions about the company, which I think a lot of early-stage companies can't answer. They asked this one I think is hilarious, but I was helping other people, the next batch, get in because friends of friends I got in, they couldn't even answer this one. It was really awkward.
Ross Rich:
It's like, who's the boss? Who makes the final decision? So it was really interesting, I think the way that they looked at business and kind of the trends that they saw versus, say, standard VC, or-
Pouyan:
Even if you decide not to do YC, I think going through that, the application exercise is a really important and valuable experience. And this is where I think folks who have been in sales actually have an advantage because so many of those questions are just basic, like, who is this for? What problem is it solving? And can you articulate that in a very simple and concise way in a sentence or two?
Pouyan:
Let's bring it back a little bit, Ross. Because you have a really interesting background. And I want to learn how some of that played into both, like how did you get into sales in the first place and also how some of that is helping you as a CEO and co-founder now, but.
Ross Rich:
Kind of back out a little bit. So in college, my brother and I were both rappers as well as started a company-
Corporate Bro:
Hell, yeah.
Ross Rich:
... Yeah. So we rapped. Our claim to fame is that we opened for Bone Thugs-N-Harmony in college. That was like the big, that's where I peaked. No matter what happens with Accord, opening for Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, peaking-
Corporate Bro:
I think that's every affluent white kid's dream. Open for Bone Thugs.
Ross Rich:
Yeah.
Corporate Bro:
I know it was mine. Like, I went through a phase, too. I still have some of my equipment here. I'm like, I should get back in the game. And I was like, oh, the game's out ready for me.
Pouyan:
That games not ready.
Corporate Bro:
It's better that way. Game's not ready for me.
Pouyan:
I was going to say that, too.
Ross Rich:
I feel like Little Dicky really like, that was what my brother and I dreamed was going to-
Corporate Bro:
Oh, yeah.
Ross Rich:
My brother got a job in San Francisco on a sales team after college. And he was showing me all these offers. I'm like, holy, you're going to get paid this much? I was literally paying to live in New York working like 12 hours a day. And like, it cost me money. So I was like, I'm going to do that. Like, I'm going to get a job at a place that has breakfast, lunch and dinner, that treats their employees super well. That are banking, that have millions of dollars in VC funding. Ended up somehow at Stripe. Basically did like 45, I think, applications, cover letters, first calls, recruiter screens. Move to SF without a job, was sleeping literally in the same bed as my brother because it cost a ridiculous amount of money to even get a room there.
Ross Rich:
I think he was paying like $2,200, like right out of, like I have no cash. We're crashing in the same room. I do like 10 onsites the next week. Because I'm like, shit, I need a job to get paid and move into a place. And my last-
Corporate Bro:
Money's tight.
Ross Rich:
Yeah. And the ... Money's tight. The last interview that I had onsite was with Stripe and there's zero chance I think I would've gotten that job if I didn't do 45 recruiter screens before the 10 onsites, all that kind of stuff, the research, and met with the team there. And like every single person, I'm just like, why are you at this tiny company? You're like the smartest person I've ever met. They're like, yeah, I was one of the first employees at Google. Yeah, I was this thing at Twitter. I'm just like, who are these people?
Ross Rich:
And then, yeah, just fell in love with sales and everything after then. So that's kind of, that was the next four and a half years.
Pouyan:
Did you really?
Corporate Bro:
Did you fall in love with sales?
Pouyan:
Yeah, I mean-
Ross Rich:
110%.
Corporate Bro:
Did you fall in love with it?
Ross Rich:
I live for it.
Pouyan:
Ross, you and I have talked about this a little bit.
Corporate Bro:
Guest Ross, Host Ross? You're just throwing around this Ross word.
Pouyan:
I am.
Ross Rich:
You're Corp, you're Corp.
Pouyan:
Let's say Guest Ross.
Corporate Bro:
He's fucked it up like three times.
Pouyan:
I have, I don't follow instructions well. Let's go with Guest Ross. Well, one pressing question. How did you know that rapping wasn't for you?
Ross Rich:
I mean, you know or you know-
Pouyan:
Yeah.
Ross Rich:
... right?
Pouyan:
Okay..
Corporate Bro:
I just didn't get the ears on mine. That was my issue. It was just distribution problem.
Pouyan:
Yeah.
Corporate Bro:
Really.
Ross Rich:
Hmm. Yeah.
Pouyan:
I mean, you should've worked with Guest Ross on the marketing side, dude. He would have promoed you.
Ross Rich:
We could've, dude. If I had been, if I had you, oh.
Corporate Bro:
I just, I should have been Little Dicky, but I decided to go a different route. I was just, I was like, you can have it, dog.
Pouyan:
He's like, I'm going to go the MBA route.
Corporate Bro:
I'm going to really sell out and go to the MBA route.
Pouyan:
But I'm curious, maybe talk to that a little bit more about, to folks listening that are in sales, have an idea or are thinking about, gosh, like what does that look like to be the founder of both, the early stage working through this? Like what is it about sales that you've learned that you're applying now?
Ross Rich:
I think the best salespeople are genuinely excited and passionate about working with their users, customers, whoever it is. That fires them up. They get on, they're like, they love the rapport-building stuff, they love to get to know people, they love to understand their problems, they want to help. That's why I think some of the best sales people that I've found through the last couple of years of building Accord have been teachers. Those are some of the best reps, they just enjoy helping people and they understand how to do that and to support them.
Ross Rich:
And then also just a lot of the pitfalls, I think the classic pitfalls of early-stage companies come from not focusing as much on the person and on the personal side, right? I hear all the time when I tell people my story about not building the thing first because that was the thing we couldn't do and getting a lot further in terms of understanding our customers and what the product should be and all that kind of stuff was like, oh, I build this thing first. And then we're stuck with that thing. And we can only change it from there.
Pouyan:
Yeah.
Ross Rich:
Right? I think the longer that you can wait, I think salespeople have that benefit of waiting and really understanding their customers and having the empathy before they start to build.
Corporate Bro:
How has your perspective on salespeople and sales in general changed, if at all, now being in the role that you're in, like seeing it from the other side?
Ross Rich:
Yeah. It's changed a lot, actually, because what we try to do, right, is like this platform that helps reps and buyers work better together. I think the bar of B2B sales is actually a lot lower now than I thought it was in terms of how helpful sellers are. And I think there's a lot of amazing people talking about why that is. I think a lot of people are in this position where they're trying to close a ... They're going to get fired. They're going to be on a PIP if they miss this deal that they have no control over.
Ross Rich:
Like you did that joke thing about the excuses. Like, those are real things you have no control over.
Corporate Bro:
Exactly.
Ross Rich:
What about product? What about all these other roles? I think it's not as good. I think you have this reputation in sales, just the way it's structured. And I really didn't think about that before people started talking about this and then day-to-day talking to sales reps and really understanding like, they're afraid of disqualifying a deal when they should. They're afraid of working fewer deals and really helping their customer because they need that pipeline. They need like ... It's this, it's coming from a place of fear.
Ross Rich:
I think it's what leads to really bad sales reps. People sending out spammy emails all the time. I think it's just inherently structured that way.
Corporate Bro:
Right. The systemic issues of sales.
Ross Rich:
Yes.
Corporate Bro:
Right? And which there are a lot of.
Ross Rich:
Yeah, totally.
Corporate Bro:
Amen. Amen. So, okay. What have you hired so far and how do you think about hiring and why is marketing at the end of that list?
Ross Rich:
There shouldn't be sales and marketing. It's earlier, it's awareness. Like you should think about it in terms of what sales and marketing really do. You're trying to generate, you're trying to get the word out there of the company positioned a certain way, help a buyer evaluate it, which today is very different. Everyone wants to do it by themselves. They're used to consumerization, the apps, all that kind of stuff. Help them buy in a way that they want and then close the deal and make them successful.
Ross Rich:
I don't think there's any difference between really what should be marketing and sales in that, right? Like, hey, I'm talking to a customer. They're like, oh, I'm not sure. They need a case study to reinforce that that's actually going to help close the deal. But if you break it out, like the way it's broken out today, especially at early-stage companies, I think it makes absolutely no sense.
Ross Rich:
So the way I would ... I'm really excited about building our early sales team and marketing team is just like, there's the product R&D team. They're building the thing and they're crafting it, it's engineering, product design. And then there's the go to market team. And we're figuring out who our customers are, what they want, how are we going to serve them, how we're going to find them and how they're going to buy in a way that they want to.
Corporate Bro:
You're making a good one, I can already tell. I could already tell. You're already ahead of 90% of B2B.
Pouyan:
We're in the place now with Scratchpad that Ross, Guest Ross, we're, I think a lot of our users are also salespeople. So I'm talking to a lot of account executives and I've had folks reach out saying, hey, I have this idea. I'm thinking of starting something. I have no idea what to do, like, where do I even land on the path? And I'm like, yo, you're actually much further ahead than you think you are because you have the sales skills. And that there's too much emphasis on building.
Pouyan:
Like, don't get me wrong. You have to build something at some point. In my experience though, some areas that have been incredibly helpful is number one, stress testing. If you've been in sales, when you've lost a big one you'll know next time you're stress testing that deal. How serious are they? I've actually found that really helpful when raising capital. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on that because most investors will never say no.
Ross Rich:
I've been working on this concept and idea for over two years. We didn't get like a real, real yes until like a few months ago. And then it was months ... And it's just like this. And I think a lot of people that aren't ... you can't put up with that. That's like a signal, oh, it's not working. But you need to be very certain of what you're doing and very passionate to get through that.
Ross Rich:
We learn from every single no. They told me this, you see the patterns. That's how you got to look at it. You got to be like, oh, churn is bad at the beginning? No. Why did they churn? Learn from it, build that into the product or the process next, yes. And my dad, kind of tying it back to the sales stuff, my dad was a sales rep at heart, started his own company. It was like, every no should be a step closer to a yes.
Corporate Bro:
Yeah. So we have, it's a two-part question.
Ross Rich:
Should I be concerned?
Corporate Bro:
No, no, no, no, no, no. It's a two part question, but it does fall under the realm of rejection or hype. So we're building basically a Spotify playlist around what is your go-to single hype jam, like before a big meeting, what you've listened to before in New York, investor meeting, what's your big hype jam? And then I'm going to ask you, what's your jam of sorrow?
Ross Rich:
Just WIN. You know, Jay Rock and Kendrick. Just WIN?
Corporate Bro:
Just WIN.
Ross Rich:
You know that song? It's called WIN, yeah. Capital W-I-N.
Corporate Bro:
Yeah.
Ross Rich:
That song will get you fired up. Song of sorrow. No, I love sad music.
Corporate Bro:
Same. I love sad music.
Ross Rich:
You both know I-
Corporate Bro:
Even when I'm happy I like sad.
Ross Rich:
I can get equally fired up about like an excruciating sad song. Either Sideways, Citizen Cope.
Corporate Bro:
Ooh, Citizen Cope, yeah.
Ross Rich:
Featuring Santana version, Sideways. Or, it's a tough decision between that and Slow Dancing in a Burning Room, Live in LA, John Mayer. Those two songs. Heartbreak [crosstalk 00:17:20].
Pouyan:
I think we'll take two here.
Ross Rich:
I was assuming, to be honest, like I was assuming that the song soundtrack thing that you were guys were hyping up at the beginning was going to be like a hip hop-type thing where you rapped about the show. And I was going to, you know-
Pouyan:
Offer your services?
Corporate Bro:
No, we're not there yet.
Ross Rich:
Wouldn't recommend doing that.
Corporate Bro:
We're not quite there yet. We need a lot of production for that. Like a lot that we can't afford. Some Auto-Tune.
Ross Rich:
Upwork, Upwork.
Corporate Bro:
Yeah, I know. Upwork is so good.
Ross Rich:
Record your own and master it.
Corporate Bro:
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Pouyan:
Well, all right. Guest Ross, thanks so much for joining us. This has been super insightful. And thanks for sharing your story. Yeah, for folks that might want to get in touch with you, what's the best way?
Ross Rich:
Either email me at [email protected], or just hit me up on LinkedIn. Ross Rich, the real Ross Rich.
Corporate Bro:
That would have been such a good rapper name.
Pouyan:
Ah, the Real Ross Rich.
